Generation Gaffe
an interview with Dave Hickey
- Tucker Teutsch III -
Tucker Teutsch III Youve described the beautiful vision of Texas in the rearview mirror. There seems to be a long tradition of thatof creative people leaving Texas to love it, or just plain leave itperiod. How would you describe your relationship to the state?
Dave Hickey Well, basically I just dont like it very much. Culturally speaking, its a state full of farmers. Grandpa starts the farm. Daddy makes the farm succeed or fail. Son writes a book about this success or failure. Grandson makes a movie about the farm. That may seem an exaggeration, but basically its all about the fucking farm.
I have many friends in Texas, of course, and there are places there that I like, but its not a good place for me to live. Its not an intellectual place and Im an intellectual person. Texas may be an artistic place and it may be a creative place and it may be a scholarly place, but intellectual endeavors are not respected there. Everybodys too self-conscious. Theyre afraid youre going to make fun of their shoes and they love their shoes. They want to be told that their shoes are wonderful.
Tucker You dropped out of UT Austin even though Austin sounded like a hell of an interesting place during that period (mid 60s to early 70s). Do you think any place could have held your attention, academically, in that period of your life?
Dave No. I was having fun being in the art business. I couldnt really afford to be in the art business in a big Texas city because it was too expensive. Austin was full of fixed-income bureaucrats and hippies scraping up money for Grateful Dead vinyls. So I moved to New York. Texas was not very cosmopolitan then but I had a good time. Austins a great place to be young in but its a terrible place to be a grown-up. If youre a kid, you can form a band with four of your friends and go play gigseven if you cant play. But eventually, somebodys gotta play defense. And in Texas, everybody loves everything because its creative.
Tucker I was reading about the emergence of modern art in Texas in the 1950s and 1960s and how resistant people were to it. Id like to know more about how people overcame what one person colorfully called, the Emily post-impressionistic school of bluebonnet painters.
Dave You cant really overcome that. Grannies are going to like Granny art. The real precedent of art for my own endeavors wasnt bluebonnet painting. It was a kind of genteel surrealism that people like Jack Boynton and Roy Fridge and Jim Love practiced. They made a very nice kind of formalist surrealismgood art, generally, that was the real, entrenched, rich people art when I was a kid. And it still is, really, because Texas has always been a state full of bad dreams. Farmers with bad dreams and guilty consciencesoh dear! I mean, Houstons a nice town and its got good collectors, good dealers and nice institutions, but you know, youve still gotta be a nice guy. Its still hard to be verbal there, its hard to be gay there and its still hard to be anything interesting there that doesnt relate directly to folk music. The people who survive there are people who are naturally rambunctious and genuinely nice people like The Art Guys, who do good work and have the temperament for Texas. I dont have it. (Laughs)
Tucker Are you still living in Las Vegas?
Dave Actually, Im in Long Beach right now, but I still teach in Las Vegas and were going to get a house there and live both places. My wife teaches down here.
Tucker Ive read your arguments for living in a place like Vegas, where the American dream is still alive and well. At the same time, it must also be lacking intellectually, no?
Dave It may be lacking in culture but it is not lacking in smarts. Gambling is a smart persons occupation, so the general intellectual level of the city is pretty high. The level of the culture is relatively low; although, unlike Texas, no one is actively trying to suppress it so the town is growing up. There are good artists who show around the world and interesting rich people and theyre not a bunch of sissies. The towns not run by a bunch of white protestant assholes and that helps a lot. Its also the only city Ive ever lived in thats not run from a country club.
Tucker I have to make a confession here: I am not an art person. My entire knowledge of the art world could probably fit into a jam jar. So when ARTL!ES first asked me to talk to you, I thought they were asking for a discussion of Gram Parsons and Doug Sahm. Youve called music the dominant art form of the twentieth century. In your day, how did music inform art and vice versa?
Dave Well, obviously, there are no cosmic cowboys in Crawford these days. As for the past, my dad was a jazz musician so I didnt grow up in a hillbilly world. I grew up in a world of King Curtis, Doc Severinsen, Ornette Colemanthe Fort Worth jazz communityand so thats what I thought was art. There was no difference in that kind of jazz and the kind of painting that was being made in New York at the time.
That was a very different time. If you lived in Texas then and you did anything, you knew everybody else who did anything. You knew dancers, you knew poets, you knew novelists, you knew musicians and actresses. There wasnt that much culture but what was there had not yet been academically fractured. It was a modest little community, but when you added all of the artists up, there were a lot of interesting people.
Tucker I guess the easiest example of what Im talking about is the Armadillo World Headquarters. They were an influential music institution, but at the same time they had a bunch of in-house poster artists like Jim Franklin, Guy Juke, Danny Garrett and others. When you opened your Austin gallery A Clean, Well-Lighted Place in 1967, Jim Franklin was your first show. From what I understand, you were trying to find artists who werent doing typical Texas art. But the Armadillo, prominent in the work of Franklin and Gilbert Shelton, soon became a major symbol of Texas art.
Dave Oh yeah. I actually published an early Zap Comix. I used to represent Shelton, Franklin and Crumb and sell their art. That paid my bills for a long time because everybody wanted to buy them. Their art had pictures people could understand, and I liked it too. I was part of that scene at the Texas Ranger and everything. To be honest, though, the cartoons were the cats I sold to feed my dog. In fact, that first show I did for Jim Franklin was a show of his abstract paintings. At that time, abstract painting was Jims vocation. Shivas Head Band album covers were his day job.
Tucker You dedicated quite a bit of your book, Air Guitar, to the psychedelic movement. You say that since psychedelic culture was inherently democratic, a person didnt have to actually take drugs to completely understand the aesthetic. I want to call bullshit on that. If you consider the confluence of theory and emotion and existentialism that occurs in the moment a person contemplates their hand while tripping on acid, how is that sort of experience able to be translated to a person who has never partaken of the drug?
Dave I personally think its intellectually translatable. Most of Foucault and Deleuze is about the social construction of knowledge, which acid deconstructs, and about restoration of a pre-cognitive sense of things. I cant testify to this, of course, because I took psychedelics. They were a part of the time but so was post-structuralist theory and, in my view, they were a part of one another. Anyway, I always suggest that people read. I never suggest that people take drugs because whats fun for you kills your friend. My theory is that knowledge is socially constructed and internalized, so if youre around people who are tripping all the time and youre the only straight person in the room, thats as weird as being the only person stoned. Experience is experiencethere are no good or bad kinds.
Tucker You also have argued that words destroy visualityor, at least, the visual experienceand thats not a new argument. But you also say that you decided to write about art, to attach your work to pieces of art in the hope that they might have a longer shelf life than the words by themselves. But if words destroy visuality, then isnt writing about art even more destructive, since the visual image described is so much more specific?
Dave Well, first of all, what I say about any work of art is over as soon as Ive said it. It becomes a historical reading of whatever Im looking at. Works of art, on the other hand, are always new. Also, when I write about art, Im writing about abstract art or writing about arts abstract or physical attributes. I am interested in the non-linguistic aspects of artin the part of it that is not language. I couldnt care less about stories or pictures or feelings in art. I like the challenge of trying to put something into language that really doesnt belong in language. So, for me, its the kinestheticsthose experiences that dont divide into subjects and predicatesthat Ive always found beguiling. Unfortunately for me, were not in a period of history where that matters much, since, basically, all art now derives from popular art. There is no art-art. Theres just movies, TV and comics.
Ed Ruscha, Chop, 1967
Graphite on paper
13 1/4 x 21 7/8 inches
Collection of the Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth
Gift of the Junior League of Fort Worth
Tucker So its all self-referential?
Dave Its not even self-referential. It all comes straight out of the media. Its not like theres any art right now that comes out of the history of western artits just ripped off from comic books, movies and TV, and we call it art because its a lot less accomplished than TV, comic books and movies. That presents a cultural problem that Im not particularly anxious to address. (Laughs)
Tucker Thats a pretty complex subject right there, but I have to say that youre writing on art appeals to many laymen and I have to count myself among them. Would you say that your secret mission is to make art accessible for people outside the art world?
Dave No, not at all. What most people read of mine is stuff Ive written about popular art, like Air Guitar. Ninety-eight percent of what I write is art essays like the one I just finished for Anthony Caros exhibition at the Tate. In both genres, I just want to write good, lucid prose. I certainly dont want tonor do I think I canmake art accessible. Art is an elective. Its not something you have to understand. It doesnt make you better, it doesnt make you smarter and it doesnt make you happy. But if you love the visible world, if you have that predisposition and you happen to like art, then well get along fine. Im not interested in educating anybody and I dont think art and education go together very well. Your experience of art is enhanced by having experienced other works of art. I cant imagine anyones experience of art being enhanced by anything written about it. The authority of writing can give people permission to think about things differently, but thats about it.
Tucker I do think you go about your writing in a very side-winding way. You confirm our suspicions and allay our fears about the art world and modern art itself, but at the same time you champion the art. And that allows us to enter that plane of debate, if you will, and become participants.
Dave Right. Art is my thing. Its not necessarily anybody elses thing nor should it be. As a consequence, I liked the art world when it was smaller. I hate all this museum shit and school shit and blog shitwhere some redneck in Nebraska can sit down and read whatever youre thinking. (Laughs)
Tucker You said that art is not necessarily good for us.
Dave Right.
Tucker And youve also said that if artists and their hangers-on accepted that art doesnt matter, that its a purely frivolous pursuit, then they might be able to produce more honest and lasting work and be happier doing it. In other words, they wouldnt have to spend their time justifying themselves. Is there any chance of that actually happening?
Dave Yeah, probably, just because art doesnt change for any historical reason, it changes because were bored. And once we get bored of having people preach to us, once we get bored with stupid, fairytale art like Matthew Barney and Anna Gaskell and John Currin, then maybe well change. I dont know what well change to, or if it will be better, but it will certainly be different.
Tucker What are you excited about currently?
Dave What am I excited about?
Tucker Or are you sick of it all?
Dave Well, I was really happy the Pistons beat the Lakers.
Tucker Yeah, goddamn right!
(A minutes digression into a discussion of the end of the Lakers dynasty and the future of the NBA)
Dave But other than that, Im slightly reserved. I have a lot of ex-students whose art I like and a lot of kids around here in LA. Mostly they make low-temperature abstraction and I like that. And there are a lot of grown up artists out there I like, although its not much fun anymore.
Tucker Im taking an informal straw poll of people I talk to about the state of fun. As a guy who has obviously had a lot of it in the past, do you find the modern world to be less fun?
Dave Personally, yeah, but it was never better yesterday. Kids are still having fun, Im sure, but Im not a kid any more. I still think I deserve some fun; however, in this moment, I dont think the grown-up art world is much fun. Nobodys stoned, disheveled, horny, naked or crazy at openings anymore. Everythings real serious but nobody even cries. Its all a bunch of fucking professors (of which I am one). But it isnt private, secretive, naughty, glamorous or ruthlessly ambitious. There are brands of heavy metal that are more underground than art these days.
Tucker You take a lot of jabs at academia, rightfully so in my opinion. But then, why teach?
Dave I really like talking to young artists and Im actually a pretty good art coach. Im not very good at teaching them anything, because theyre idiots, but I can coach. Also, once youre a critic like I am, with a lot of power, your relationship with practicing artists is not very clean. Theyre so concerned with what you think that youre never going to have a straight conversation. So I like to keep in touch with the young idiots who dont know any better
Tucker The lowest common denominator?
Dave The little stoners down there at the university. Also, I need health insurance.
Tucker As a freelancer, you cannot overstate that. Jesus Christ.
Dave Until I was fifty it was okay, but then I began to realize that if I got sick they would cancel my insurance. Then Terry Allen and Joe Ely would have to do a benefit concert to pay for my iron lung. The horror of that prospect sent me into teaching. So I got a foot in the door, and I tell myself that at least I didnt have a job until I was fifty.
Tucker That aint bad. Its almost as good as my stepfather not marrying until he was sixty.
Dave You got it.
Tucker I want to read you a passage from Air Guitar about the disservice of mainstreaming subversion: In an increasingly diffuse and customized post-industrial world, we cling to the last vestige of industrial thinking: the presumption of mass-produced identity and ready-made experience a presumption that makes the expression, appreciation, or even the perception of our everyday distinctions next to impossible. My question is: What does it mean when it is possible, and fashionable, to go out and buy a pre-fab log home right off a lot?
Dave When I say things like that, Im usually driving at two things. First of all, theres no structural difference between what postmodernists call identity politics and plain ole corporate niche marketing. The difference between empowering Chicanos and marketing to them through their cultures is virtually indistinguishable. And I think its a stupid idea, because the whole idea that Chicanos are going to come all the way downtown to look at a bunch of Chicano art when its splayed all over their neighborhood is crazy. Its like the idea that I would go see a show about golf because thats my culture. My other point is that things almost never do what they are intended to do. Every gay guy I know used to love The Flying Nun and have a feeling that what they were reading into The Flying Nun wasnt what The Flying Nun was intended to be about. Our ability to transform the crap of popular culture into something thats more interesting is always amazing.
In any case, art proceeds on a long sequence of misunderstandings, and so it really doesnt matter what people are trying to sell usits more a matter of what we buy. Theres always the possibility of someone completely misunderstanding art or culture in an interesting way. Thats why I hate wall texts in museums. I dont think you should tell people what to think, because some day someone might come in and see something in an interesting way. But wall texts tell you thats wrong.
Tucker Or that whole audio tour shit.
Dave Oh, I hate those things.
Tucker I just got back from Spain and used one of those in the Prado Museum. It sort of ruined a lot of Velzquez for me.
Dave Well, you cant completely ruin Velzquez.
Tucker Of course not. But often enough, I just want to see itwithout commentary.
Dave Right, and even if you dont have an audio guide, youre surrounded by people with themthis sort of village of the damned.
Tucker And certainly when I got up to the Hieronymus Bosch room I just turned the fucker off because theres nothing they can say about that work that I havent thought of before. I mean, Ive had a print of that famous triptych on my wall for fifteen years.
Dave Right.
Tucker If you were forced to say something nice about Texas, what would it be?
Dave (Long, meaningful pause) Well, I like the space of West Texas. I like that flatness. But Vegas has that, too. I like those nice West Texas highways with the wide yellow-grass bar ditches. I like a lot about the way West Texas feels. I have a lot of nostalgia for that, for driving down to Marfa or driving from El Paso to San Antonioalways presuming one can drive back to Nevada or California
Tucker Then again, isnt it easy to be a liberal, freethinking person in a place like California. How about going back to Texas and fighting for what you believe in? That seems to be the real test of someones politicsand maybe even their art.
Dave Maybe, but I like things to be easy and fun. I try not to do things that are hard or things that hurt or things that dont pay and Texas, for me at least, is hard, hurtful and cheap. Otherwise, its great!
Tucker Have you been back to San Antonio anytime lately?
Dave No. I know whats there. And I like it. Its very nice. Its just corny.
Tucker Well, thats true. At the same time, you say people in Texas are too worried about what other people think. San Antonio seems to exist and thrive despite its lack of hip. San Antonians know they will never out hip Austin to the north. So its kind of refreshing, and you get some strange types down there.
Dave Oh yeah, there are some weird fucks down in San Antone, just because its so isolated. And Austins just a beer commercial now. Its very strange. Texas has become a very conservative place. Its hard for artists from there to survive there. I mean, Bob Rauschenberg lives in Captiva and if it wasnt for the curvature of the earth, he could go outside and look at where he grew up and say, fuck you, as could nearly everybody I knew who grew up there. People like Vernon Fisher still live there and get along alright. Im sure there are people who live there and like it. I just have too sharp a tone.
Stephen Mueller, Ashes, 1970
Oil and acrylic on canvas
72 x 108 inches
Courtesy Richard Feigen Gallery